Curse

Veldan · Jan 24, 2012, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Wild Blow needs to change to Strength with a less than five fail component. Then it needs to remove the adrenaline loss. The skill already has a 8 second recharge. Most of the time if someone pops a stance in PvP they are invincible to melee. There should be better options for the Warrior to remove it. He is the master of stances after all.

Wild blow needs to stay as it is. It's a great skill, being unblockable stance removal that always crits.

Besides, if warriors could remove stances like that and have all their adrenaline, there would be no protection possible vs warriors. They would just remove it, and spike you right after.

zwei2stein · Jan 24, 2012, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veldan

Wild blow needs to stay as it is. It's a great skill, being unblockable stance removal that always crits.

Besides, if warriors could remove stances like that and have all their adrenaline, there would be no protection possible vs warriors. They would just remove it, and spike you right after.

Great skill? It is okay skill which was usefull on dervish before they got adrenalined (and marginally on sins).

There is no use-case for it:

Remove stance and then what ... build up adrenaline and spike after that? That is laughable - stance would recharge by time you regained adrenaline.

Or use it as finisher after spike? Yeah, right ...

Crit itself is not worth adrenal cost either, neither is unblockablity.

You might make it work on WE warrior, but why would you want to... Or you can slot it on some caster to help out with melee spike, but that one can as easily be done with wild throw nowadays. Or maybe on sin ... but they kinda have decent-ish stance removal already.

Veldan · Jan 24, 2012, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Remove stance and then what ... build up adrenaline and spike after that?

And this is where many people forget something important: PvP is not 1v1. If you remove a block stance, that other warrior can suddenly also hit the monk again. That's why wild blow has always had its uses.

Also, no adrenaline doesn't mean you can't attack, there's always power strike / bulls strike. It just means you can't make your most powerful combo, which is exactly how it should be, in my opinion. And it seems like Anet shares that opinion.

papryk · Jan 24, 2012, 11:22 AM // 11:22

I bet that ppl will now start to use Forceful Blow

Fluffy Kittens · Jan 24, 2012, 01:36 PM // 13:36

boring bbways and op balas will be back.. sigh (talking about HA)

Skyy High · Jan 24, 2012, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

Does anyone actually have 60 AR anymore, though?

My thought exactly.

Xsiriss · Jan 24, 2012, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veldan

And this is where many people forget something important: PvP is not 1v1.

Warriors are countered the hardest by stances, dervish have higher attack speeds and more utility skill aside from attacks and the obviously it counters the niche of warriors KD'ing. Often warriors pressure people alone for just that, pressure rather than focusing. Removing stances is important and there isn't a reliable way of doing so without massive down sides (both grapple and wild blow), and this is meant to be the warrior's niche. It's a lot easier to do as suggested and move it to wild blow to strength and make it fail without investment than to keep hitting stances.

zwei2stein · Jan 24, 2012, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veldan

And this is where many people forget something important: PvP is not 1v1. If you remove a block stance, that other warrior can suddenly also hit the monk again. That's why wild blow has always had its uses.

Also, no adrenaline doesn't mean you can't attack, there's always power strike / bulls strike. It just means you can't make your most powerful combo, which is exactly how it should be, in my opinion. And it seems like Anet shares that opinion.

"Wasting" one character to allow another do his job is not teamwork.

You can argue that someone can take it off-spec (casters/ranger), but that requires positioning that can be luxury. But theese offspec helpers are much better off with Wild Throw even after recent change.

As for power Attack & co: in order for warrior to function well enough to be worth party slot with energy attacks, you need to have bar dedicated to it and you need to waste elite skill on it (Warrior's Endurance). Or you can get alternative source of adrenaline (Rage of the Ntouka).

I do agree that warriors do not need easy to use stance removal, my main disagreement is that you called what they have Great Skill (which is way too flattering description, "Okay Skill" is being generous. And there is nothing wrong with okay skill...)

It is too similar to Glyph of Sacrifice / Glyph of Essence - really interesting functionality in theory, but which costs too much to use.

Essence Snow · Jan 24, 2012, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Warriors are countered the hardest by stances, dervish have higher attack speeds and more utility skill aside from attacks and the obviously it counters the niche of warriors KD'ing. Often warriors pressure people alone for just that, pressure rather than focusing. Removing stances is important and there isn't a reliable way of doing so without massive down sides (both grapple and wild blow), and this is meant to be the warrior's niche. It's a lot easier to do as suggested and move it to wild blow to strength and make it fail without investment than to keep hitting stances.

As long as it is split for pve/pvp. There are several instances in pve (shiro namely) where stance removal comes in great handy. Changin all the stance removal skills in the game would have a negative effect on those not playing with said skills primary proffession.

Coast · Jan 24, 2012, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Only wild throw could be considered an issue cause it was ranged and had no downside, imo it even was worth an elite spot.

Reverend Dr · Jan 25, 2012, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

My thought exactly.

People are caught in 40/40 sets more often than they would like to admit. My point was that the spirit bond change is (well assuming axe warriors come back) a fundamental change in warrioring vs spirit bond. As previously there was no way an auto attacking axe warrior was going to trigger spirit bond and now it is a possibility. I'm not saying anyone should run lower armor to trigger spirit bond, but getting caught in 40/40 is more of a possibility than many would let on.

Swingline · Jan 25, 2012, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

People are caught in 40/40 sets more often than they would like to admit. My point was that the spirit bond change is (well assuming axe warriors come back) a fundamental change in warrioring vs spirit bond. As previously there was no way an auto attacking axe warrior was going to trigger spirit bond and now it is a possibility. I'm not saying anyone should run lower armor to trigger spirit bond, but getting caught in 40/40 is more of a possibility than many would let on.

It happens all the time. Players want to win but not everyone is obsessed with this e-sport fad. It takes time to switch weapon sets and sometimes I miss it by a mere 1/10th of a second. I welcome the new Spirit Bond.

floor · Jan 25, 2012, 09:15 AM // 09:15

I guess there is an argument that the Wild Throw Nerf could possibly be a bad thing from the point of view of RA, but then nobody really tries to balance the game around RA alone.

From an 8v8 perspective i dont see it being a problem, just run whirling axe on another melee and co-ordinate with ur hammer? In a team setting where you can choose ur team composition there are always ways of getting the job done, and if it requires more thought than just brainlessly prot camping then thats great

*lemming* · Jan 25, 2012, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

It happens all the time. Players want to win but not everyone is obsessed with this e-sport fad. It takes time to switch weapon sets and sometimes I miss it by a mere 1/10th of a second. I welcome the new Spirit Bond.

yeah those goddamn tryhards

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

From an 8v8 perspective i dont see it being a problem, just run whirling axe on another melee and co-ordinate with ur hammer? In a team setting where you can choose ur team composition there are always ways of getting the job done, and if it requires more thought than just brainlessly prot camping then thats great

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing; it's definitely a bit weird that it took them more than three years to acknowledge that Wild Throw on hammer warriors is something that might be worth toning down, though.

KotCR · Jan 25, 2012, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

There are several instances in pve (shiro namely) where stance removal comes in great handy.

Yeah, but I really can't see it being an issue in PvE anyway. I mean, there's no harm whatsoever in bringing a Warrior's Endurance Warrior hero with Wild Blow there (remember, in PvE Warrior's Endurance is a skill not a stance so can still be stacked with IaS and stuff still), or a Paragon with Wild Throw (disabled and micro'd for Battle Scars) instead to deal with him.

Heck, you could just throw it on any of your caster heroes there to be fair, and just have them use it without difficulty.

I wouldn't object to a Strength-linked Wild Blow with less downside for PvE only though at all.

Martin Alvito · Jan 25, 2012, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing; it's definitely a bit weird that it took them more than three years to acknowledge that Wild Throw on hammer warriors is something that might be worth toning down, though.

Which in turn implies that the game should not be balanced around stances that never should have been buffed in the first place.

Or, to put it another way: when everyone universally runs the same secondary for a given class (especially when it's a critical class like Mo), you have a problem. Mo/N OoB apparently wasn't fine, and neither was Mo/Me Mantra/PDrain, nor Mo/A Return/Dark Escape...but Mo/W is?

Kunder · Jan 25, 2012, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Which in turn implies that the game should not be balanced around stances that never should have been buffed in the first place.

Or, to put it another way: when everyone universally runs the same secondary for a given class (especially when it's a critical class like Mo), you have a problem. Mo/N OoB apparently wasn't fine, and neither was Mo/Me Mantra/PDrain, nor Mo/A Return/Dark Escape...but Mo/W is?

Don't forget Mo/E with GoLE. We've been going through secondaries constantly.

Mo/R Melandru's Resilience next?

HigherMinion · Jan 26, 2012, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Which in turn implies that the game should not be balanced around stances that never should have been buffed in the first place.

Or, to put it another way: when everyone universally runs the same secondary for a given class (especially when it's a critical class like Mo), you have a problem. Mo/N OoB apparently wasn't fine, and neither was Mo/Me Mantra/PDrain, nor Mo/A Return/Dark Escape...but Mo/W is?

These are all used today, still. The /W stances are dominant and clearly the best, but there is variety. Shield of Force is abused on every caster, really, and Shield Bash is stronger, as it doesn't require any investment. It's the definition of a PvE skill!

I don't think stances are overpowered, though, because if you don't have stances, you just have more reliance on blind. No blind or cripple=you'll get pressured out. But then you just start running more prots. Prots are good; Guardian will see use again and Spirit Bond is looking nice at the moment. I think Shield Bash needs a nerf, and Mirage Cloak. Monking would be much more fun and involved if it wasn't just about redbarring, but players being good at kiting, crippling, blinding and Guardian placement. Dolyak Signet is fine because a monk self-snaring itself is hilarious.

bhavv · Jan 26, 2012, 03:37 AM // 03:37

I still see monks with R, E, and A secondaries, and they work very well in a lot of situations. Mo/W isnt always the best chioice if an individual player is able to manage redbarring and keeping their team alive better with other secondary skill.

I always thougt that wild strike was the best stance removal in the game and always use it with golden fox strike when playing a sin in RA. Stances get removed with no difficulty.

Even if you bring stance removal, a monk could just use Guardian. TBH melee damage and particularly KD warriors can easilly shut down and kill a monk without any counters, and thats why we have and need block and blind skills.

The new spirit bond looks great, but its still 10e, if you have a semi capable e denial mesmer on your group, enemy monks should never be able to remain on 10e, they wouldbe stuck at 0 and needing to spam WoH as soon as they hit 5 energy (easy diversion for a slightly more capable mesmer).

Monks have the hardest time in PVP, so many people run anti monk shut down builds, and so many incompetent players always attack monks first instead of disabling / killing the enemy monk killer first.

floor · Jan 26, 2012, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

if you have a semi capable e denial mesmer on your group, enemy monks should never be able to remain on 10e, they wouldbe stuck at 0 and needing to spam WoH as soon as they hit 5 energy (easy diversion for a slightly more capable mesmer).

or of course the monk could just hide his energy so the Mesmer cant drain it? sit on his -5 energy set, shifting up to cast and switching back after. not rocket science although admittedly most RA monks still didn't catch on to this concept.